Contact 'Issues'?

[MoR137]

Hi

 

The purpose of this thread is to collect some constructive points of view about issues arising from tonights meeting at Sexbierium, and the contact.

 

Please keep things as constructive as possible, things like 'its rubbish' are of no help at all, just say whats wrong, what u think it should be like, and how it could be improved, if it needs to be improved at all.

 

I don't want this thread to turn into a slanging match - we all what this game to be as good as it can be, and the only way to accomplish that is to look at it as constructively as possible.

 

One thing to note - was it the track? Did you have these same feelings when racing Belle Vue and Ipswich Shale?

 

Cheers

MoR

[Matty300]

I do seem to think that regardless of surface the car seems to spin a little too readily following contact on the left rear wheel or bumper, hard or a light tap, which necessitates a wild opposite lock movement to rectify (rarely successfully in my case). Some of the comments in chat seemed to indicate that this is realistic when compared to f1's in real life, im not qualified to comment on that & wouldnt have a clue, however I will say that (as a work in progress) the rFactor F1 mod is excellent & the level of realism & sense of being immersed in a F1 race is far beyond Ukdirt f1's.

[Kruiz 136]

Ok, a lot of people tonight were basing their theorys on what they *think* an F1 car would handle like. Well, I've been chatting to my dad (who drove an F1 for the best part of 30 years on both surfaces, regularly) for the last 45 minutes or so about various things on driving an F1.

 

This is what he told me about driving on Shale racing:

 

 

The cars, in general, handle difficultly, with a back end that constantly wants turn round on you.

 

The art of driving on shale is to:

Feed throttle on from 3/4 of the way out the bend to full throttle when completely out the bend, slowly left into the straight from a full opposite lock. Then *dab* (nothing more) the brakes into the corner and steer left slightly to bring the rear out before turning right into full opposite lock again. The stagger is so great that the back end wants to turn in for you. You only bab the brakes to bring the revs of the engine down to allow more grip for a controlled slide around the corner, not particularly to slow the car down. Using full throttle on the bend at ANY point before 3/4 of the way round would almost definately spin you out.

 

On certain tracks ie Bradford, no brakes were needed at all, just steer in. Smaller tracks with tighter bends, brakes are used but very very little, just a dab.

 

If you feel you are losing control at any point, and the rear is coming around on you, as a general rule, power off and the rear wheels get more grip and it straightens up.

 

 

 

Contact on shale:

 

It is difficult to way up exactly what happens with contact on shale as stock cars is by no means an easy sport to judge or predict and contact varies greatly but generally:

 

Contact results vary depending on speed, where you hit the car where you are on the corner and weather conditions.

 

To try and explain this as simply as possible, lets say car 'A' is pushing, and car 'B' is being pushed and this is at racing speed (40 - 50 mph):

 

If car A's front right end hits car B's rear left end going into the corner and both are sliding with weight on the rear, both will spin out virtually every time, depending on amount of contact. If there is a lot of contact, both will spin out. Not much, car A will spin out and car B will get loose, but will probably save it.

 

If car A while not in a slide hits car B whilst in a slide, just car B will spin out.

 

It all depends on where the weight is on the cars at the time. If the weight is on the rear of the cars ie. sliding it will probably spin out. If the cars weight is mostly on the front, ie not sliding, the cars won't spin out. It doesn't take very much contact to spin an F1 car out if weight is on the back.

 

Tosh asked me about nerfing in chat. If cars are nerf to nerf (side by side) they wont spin out. If one car slides into another with a square hit on the nerf, mid-corner, they won't spin out, but car being hit may slide up the track a little. Generally when cars are in contact, side by side, square on they wont spin out, in fact they are more liekly not than when on their own as the car has something to lean against.

 

However if the cars are not square on the car doing the pushing is always more likely to spin out than the car being pushed.

 

The best way of ensuring a clean hit with guy in front, and to take him out if nescassary, is to make sure you are not sliding at all, so this is before you turn into the corner and make contact with the driver in front using your front bumper on the driver infront's rear bumper or rear wheel area. If you hit his front rear bumper his car will probably understeer towards the fence. If you hit anywhere from the centre of the nerf to the rear wheel his car will spin out. If you hit anywhere from the centre of the drivers' nerf to the front wheel the front of his car will turn towards the fence.

 

 

 

I've not had time to ask him about how tarmac varies to shale as he has to go to bed now, but hopefully this is enough to give the developers something to do for now, hopefully i'll get time to ask him about tarmac sometime this week. If anybody has any queeries about anything regarding the driving of an F1, be it set-ups, contact or the actual driving art itself, my dad will be glad to help. Please just ask.

 

 

Cheers

 

Kruiz

[Tosh924]

 

the only thing i didnt like about tonight was the contact on exiting bends. i merely touched the nerf rail of a car 2nite coming out of turn 4 and it spun me round. same in practice.(i suppose the nature of the track didnt help) but....

 

we were both on, id say half throttle at the time side by side.

 

tosh

[Kruiz 136]

the only thing i didnt like about tonight was the contact on exiting bends. i merely touched the nerf rail of a car 2nite coming out of turn 4 and it spun me round. same in practice.(i suppose the nature of the track didnt help) but....

 

we were both on, id say half throttle at the time side by side.

 

tosh

 

Were you nerf to nerf, or your front bumper to his nerf (even if it was very little), also were you both on opposite lock?

[Hutch#331]

contact problems are zilch unless its uncontroled flat out hits which are gaurenteed a spin anyway

 

use of pad and keys gives cars lack of control thats the drivers fault not the games, running with low steering lock won't help matters but its the onlyway for pad?key drivers to have decent control of the car

 

cars which are badly set up are a problem, going full lock into bends and getting tapped wil result in a spin

 

spend sometime with the game and learn the setups, oh and a wheel works wonders we don't drive real f1's with keys/pads

 

rfactors a harder more realistic game to drive than heat so if you don't put the time in don't expect to be any good

[Hutch#331]

the only thing i didnt like about tonight was the contact on exiting bends. i merely touched the nerf rail of a car 2nite coming out of turn 4 and it spun me round. same in practice.(i suppose the nature of the track didnt help) but....

 

we were both on, id say half throttle at the time side by side.

 

tosh

 

Were you nerf to nerf, or your front bumper to his nerf (even if it was very little), also were you both on opposite lock?

 

watch yourself on the replays tosh, you spin out when theres know one near you a good few times

 

size 12 lead boots maybe.............

[Kruiz 136]

contact problems are zilch unless its uncontroled flat out hits which are gaurenteed a spin anyway

 

use of pad and keys gives cars lack of control thats the drivers fault not the games, running with low steering lock won't help matters but its the onlyway for pad?key drivers to have decent control of the car

 

cars which are badly set up are a problem, going full lock into bends and getting tapped wil result in a spin

 

spend sometime with the game and learn the setups, oh and a wheel works wonders we don't drive real f1's with keys/pads

 

rfactors a harder more realistic game to drive than heat so if you don't put the time in don't expect to be any good

 

Basicly, I agree with that, its a difficult game as it should be, as its no stroll in the park in real life, rest assured. Just have a look at any onboard camera that shows even part of the driver, you will notice he is working non-stop to keep the car in line even if it doesn't look like that from the terraces. ITS NOT EASY GUYS.

Edited October 21, 2007 by Kruiz 136

[Tosh924]

 

(as you stated)

If cars are nerf to nerf (side by side) they wont spin out. If one car slides into another with a square hit on the nerf, mid-corner, they won't spin out, but car being hit may slide up the track a little. Generally when cars are in contact, side by side, square on they wont spin out, in fact they are more liekly not than when on their own as the car has something to lean against.

 

ahh.....

as stated i was side by side nerf with the other car starting to straighting up, if any oppy lock it would have been very small. imo it shouldnt have happened. what happened to rubbing is racing.

 

are we going to ban folk from using a pad/keys on rfactor if its lack of controls then? who wants to spend day and night setting a car up for a meeting and then get tagged out on the back wheel and a side by side rub on the nerf sends you outward. just my opinion

[TheGreenGenie]

Here's my opinion for what it's worth,

 

Having raced "real" stockcars some years back, the level of reality achieved with this mod is unbelievable. The contact reaction is not far from (as i remember) is on the money. A flat out hit will always result in a spin, A push into the corner is far more effective than a hit.

 

Any contact made by the front outside corner of your car onto another whilst in a drift or partial drift will cause a pendulum effect thereby transfering any momentum to the rear of the car and oveloading the rear tyres and resulting in a spin.

 

The reason it is necessary for lots of practice and fine tuning of car setups that you wouldnt have a need for in real racing is the lack of feel that you receive from a sim, FFB goes along way to helping but in a proper racing situation, feeling through your hands is not the only input you get and you can more readilly adjust to car position.

 

As far as the gamepad and wheel argument goes, wheels make a hell of a difference but i have not yet managed to get to grips with one but saying that, for some a pad shouldnt be ruled out, I got 4th in the final tonight using a PS2 Gamepad.

 

Anyway thats my rubbish spouted, its my opinion and i'm sticking to it

 

rfactor F1's are the future, lets all embrace it and get down to some decent racing.

 

Keeps up the excellent work MOD team.

 

Laters

TGG

[Tosh924]

 

righty..... here then i have had a good rant,moan, argument with hutch on msn about tonite, (nothing new their really, downside of knowing him for 30 year perhaps) anyway i still believe what i stated should be addressed with the side on side nerf contact.

 

after a good rant at each other he tells me that, he feels any contact etc through his wheel where i am struggling to get any feedback from mine as i have to have the force feedback off. as my wheel doesnt function correctly with it on. it has forcefeedback but i dont get the vibrations through it or the kerb rumbles etc or any contact from rubbing a car or a hit.

 

his car set up is very slight movement on the wheel to my over correcting each corner entering and exiting on throttle and a bit loose on the straights.

this in the end not helping my contact or rub with a car and have no feeling of what my cars doing. the physics are right but not my wheel set up isnt. my wheel works ok as it should and does with any other rfactor mod but not on f1,s

 

this where i come to the point of how many others are in the same boat as me, and or using keys/pad. hutch says he drives with feel to where i drive with the look of the car and wheels.

 

as a conclusion then this is why most folk dont want take part in f1,due to:-

1. they wont get the proper feel

2. buy a wheel

3. set the wheel up correctly (or think that it is set correctly)

 

theres guys out there who just dont have the time to practice as well. this inafect wont help the racing as you have to put a lot of time into it as its a lot harder game.

 

for me now its another new wheel to buy to see where im at.

ill persavere cause i like the game but im not sure others will.

 

the contact thing is never going to be right FOR EVERYONE if the game is to reflect real racing because of the use of pads and wheels not correctly set up, i said to hutch about tolerances being opened up on the contact, entering and exiting to combat folk spinning out on entering and exiting due to the use of pads on full lock etc etc, his argument then says it will be like going back to an arcade which i agree with him (for once).

 

thats my rant so id thought id share it to see what the makers think of it.

 

[TheGreenGenie]

Hey Tosh,

 

What wheel are you using, coz i have a sidewinder (gameport version) and i have issues with that, the biggest problem with them is microsofts unwillingness to support its own hardware, hence the reason i went back to a pad for this week.

 

Ive found that the best solution is to have FFB on but turn the effects off, if that makes sense, you still get the resistance in the wheel although you dont get the rumble effects. Its a compromise until i can afford a new wheel.

 

My biggest advice is, stick with it and providing you can put up with being the but of Hutch's p-taking you will end up loving the game.

 

Laters

TGG

[matthew413]

If you watch F1s round Brandon from the grandstand, the top drivers nearly always make sure they're straight when they hit a car in front, you never see them making contact whilst sideways.

 

Think about what happens when you hit someone else's car with the front of yours whilst you're sideways - the forces are effectively the same as someone pushing the front of your car towards the infield, hence the back end will try and spin out, and you need more opposite lock to correct it.

 

I noticed some people were using full opposite lock just to get around the bends - this leaves you no opportunity for any correction if you do get tapped and you'll just be a passenger.

 

rFactor isn't perfect but it's a damn sight more realistic than Heat. It's up to individuals to decide if they prefer a more arcade game which is quite simple to master, or a more realistic simulator which will take much longer to get to grips with, but is so much more immersive.

 

 

[chris]

i was going to have a moan about the contact but after reading the above posts it seem to be like it is similar in real life must be my crap driving,a few times lastnight i was about a cars length behind halfway down straight as i got closer just going into bend i did hit the driver in front with a slight tap so i could cut in on the inside just on the back of his left rear and my car spun out while the driver in front did not it seemed as soon as i hit the car infront i had no control of my car it felt like there was a sudden movement to the left with full lock,i also found when i hit the car with a big hit on rear left then my car did not spin but the car infront moved out wide giving me room to move on the inside..everything else about the mod is perfect wd to the team the mod way ahead ukdirt f1's

Edited October 22, 2007 by chris

[matthew413]

Should also add that I don't have a FF wheel. I spent £20 on a decent set of headphones a few weeks back and found them a big help in being more consistent.

[freew67]

Way it sounds to me is some fellers are so used to the contact in heat, and not grasping that doesnt work anymore. I have only seen 1 Brisca race in person, this year at Cov, but I can say I was EXTREMELY pleased with what I saw. I was laughing during one of the heat races. My wife asked whats so funny? I told her you see that guy just spin by him self? She asked why is that funny? I explained I do the same thing in RF. Will run 3-4 laps great laps, enter the corner a tic to hot and around I go. She doesnt find the humor lol Also on the contact side, I noticed some people would loop it on just the slightest hits, and some would take a nice shot and keep going. For those who could hear me at Cov, I was telling them its really scary that we are fairly close to the real deal. We wont ever be 100% right, thats impossible, but we can be very close. During testing, the people with pads could put some fast laps down. A few were always at the front, BUT, they couldnt save a spin if their life depended on it.

 

Advantage: Wheel

Edited October 22, 2007 by freew67

[MoR137]

Thanks for your 'real life' inputs GG and Kruiz's Dad. To me the fact that you can't hit whilst in a slide makes a lot of sense.

 

Should also add that I don't have a FF wheel. I spent £20 on a decent set of headphones a few weeks back and found them a big help in being more consistent.

 

I also don't have a FF wheel - I have a 10 quid sidewinder from ebay, have used it for two weeks. My results haven't really been up to much but fun wise, its been excellent, a lot more immersing that being on pad, and a lot easier to save spins. And this is all only with practice on the same day of the meeting, and nothing more. If i spent a little more time i'd probably be a bit better. I'd probably also have more points if Mart didn't keep picking on me......

 

The headphones idea sounds very interesting Matthew - i'll try it next week with mine and see how it goes, that also makes a lot of sense!

 

Keep the feedback coming - thanks to everybody who has contributed with sensible responses from both sides of the 'argument'.

 

Cheers

MoR

[Michael2]

I have attached an article that was written for Motorsport News a couple of years back (thanks to Chris53 on Stoxnet for the original post), about the contact element of F1 Stock Cars with input from 515 and 391.

 

[attachmentid=20341][attachmentid=20342]

[attachmentid=20343][attachmentid=20345]

 

After taking part in a couple of test meetings with mixed success, I am coming to the opinion that once people get to grips with the game, its handling, etc it will only get better. I think the amount of problems people were having with contact was not helped by the track. Sexbeirum being wide open meant people were taking different lines in and off the bends so contact between bumpers/nerfs to the inside rear wheel was more common than it would be at Ipswich Dirt for example.

 

However having said that I am not convinced the contact is 100% correct yet. I tried to use the method shown in the second diagram a couple of times last night and each time it resulted in me being spun round instantly and the driver on my outside not really moving from their own racing line, plus there were occasions were I was hitting slow moving traffic square on the rear bumper and all my car wanted to do was spin round even when I had lifted off the throttle.

 

If you watch F1s round Brandon from the grandstand, the top drivers nearly always make sure they're straight when they hit a car in front, you never see them making contact whilst sideways.

I agree with this, however watch the F1's round Sheffield and there is a lot of bumper on nerf contact which done in Rfactor would result in the car giving the contact getting into a spin.

Edited October 22, 2007 by Michael2

[TheGreenGenie]

I think that a big percentage of the problems could be either solved or eased with a little knowledge, we all know the importance of a good car setup but very few (myself included) really know where to start in this regard.

 

I usually rely on people like Hutch and Drumbstick to offer a setup and then through blind luck adapt it to suit my driving style (outrageous), whilst this is good i would much prefer to be able to do this myself. What would be great is that if someone in the know could explain the basics of putting a good setup together, you can find a fair few articles with relevance to circuit racing but not a lot for short oval/stockcars, so if one of you super dooper star men has a few hours spare jot down some notes for us.

 

Us lesser mortals would be most appreciative...

 

Laters

TGG

[Kruiz 136]

Michael,

 

I agree with what your saying, and it can be done. But it depends largely on if and how much you are in a spin yourself already. If you are already sideways while doing this, you win spin out yourself, but if your car is pushing (understeering) into the nerf it wouldn't and would/should push the car your hitting out wide or spin them out if you make contact with the rear wheel area.

[freew67]

I agree with this, however watch the F1's round Sheffield and there is a lot of bumper on nerf contact which done in Rfactor would result in the car giving the contact getting into a spin.

 

I dont agree with this. I for one have planted plenty of hits without spinning. Its about being in control when you hit them, and maintaing the control after. Without a solid base while hitting someone, you will spin when you hit them.

 

On another note, RF's collision system is not perfect. RF2 is supposed to get an upgraded system (I think). I know the team is attempting to use what we got to the fullest of its ability. If not, we blame Dankskin!!!

[Fourwinds]

I have attached an article that was written for Motorsport News a couple of years back (thanks to Chris53 on Stoxnet for the original post), about the contact element of F1 Stock Cars with input from 515 and 391.

 

 

Thanks for the article .. A very good read and tells me a lot more about why F1s now hit the way they do ... I missed the change over of Chassis specs.

 

 

[MoR137]

Thanks for the article Michael - makes a very interesting read!

 

Just to note, have people tried running a really high wheel lock in their setups (this is more for people using wheels)? I usually use around 25 degrees, and did last night. Having heard a lot of talk about running full wheel lock (39.5 degrees) i decided to give it another go this afternoon (having previously found it way too twitchy) and I've got to admit, it's made a massive difference, and I think if I ran 39.5 degrees last night I would've spun a lot less, even on these hits which seem to be spinning everybody out and causing frustration. If you haven't already, I really recommend cranking your lock right up and throwing it around sexbierium, and see if you notice the difference?

 

Cheers

MoR

[freew67]

Thanks for the article Michael - makes a very interesting read!

 

Just to note, have people tried running a really high wheel lock in their setups (this is more for people using wheels)? I usually use around 25 degrees, and did last night. Having heard a lot of talk about running full wheel lock (39.5 degrees) i decided to give it another go this afternoon (having previously found it way too twitchy) and I've got to admit, it's made a massive difference, and I think if I ran 39.5 degrees last night I would've spun a lot less, even on these hits which seem to be spinning everybody out and causing frustration. If you haven't already, I really recommend cranking your lock right up and throwing it around sexbierium, and see if you notice the difference?

 

Cheers

MoR

 

Yes, and suggest, for at least the Logitech users, trying the Realfeel plugin at RFC.

[drumbstick]

And for those who need more practice, we are still running a series on Tuesday nights that is a bit more relaxed than here at UKDirt.

 

PM me if you want any more details

[Hutch#331]

And for those who need more practice, we are still running a series on Tuesday nights that is a bit more relaxed than here at UKDirt.

 

PM me if you want any more details

 

a bit more track time does wonders lads, thats why the leagues running after all to give you guys more track time

[Kruiz 136]

Thanks for the article Michael - makes a very interesting read!

 

Just to note, have people tried running a really high wheel lock in their setups (this is more for people using wheels)? I usually use around 25 degrees, and did last night. Having heard a lot of talk about running full wheel lock (39.5 degrees) i decided to give it another go this afternoon (having previously found it way too twitchy) and I've got to admit, it's made a massive difference, and I think if I ran 39.5 degrees last night I would've spun a lot less, even on these hits which seem to be spinning everybody out and causing frustration. If you haven't already, I really recommend cranking your lock right up and throwing it around sexbierium, and see if you notice the difference?

 

Cheers

MoR

 

Thats what I did wit those Ippy shale setups you sent me MoR. They had something like 11 degrees lock and i put it up to 18, made a huge difference. Obviously with a pad its much more difficult so anything beyond 21 is just too much but if you have a higher wheel lock, even if it slows you dont by a tenth or two, I feel its better for saving spins.

 

 

Onboard video of Brimingham can be found here:

 

might give you some insight in contact on tarmac.

Edited October 22, 2007 by Kruiz 136

[Hooty256]

Hi Guys,

 

A few points i'd like to add to this discussion.

 

1. Contact between cars while racing online is always going to create some odd reactions due to the fact that there is some delay between the contact and the server realising there is contact. This can equate to massive forces as sometimes the cars are actually overlapping each other. PING.

 

2. Myself and Grasser have looked into contact for many hours and what you have at the moment is the best we could get it after trying several different methods. We are still working on it.

 

3. More lock in the setup enables you to catch a slide from futher out. I run full lock.

 

Sorry if thats hard to understand...gimme a page of meaningless numbers anyday

 

 

[freew67]

WERD

[splinter]

I just dont see why people still have an issue about contact. I think its a perfect balance now between realism and playability and what can actually be acheived on-line with rFactor

 

I think its a Brilliant job and a big well done to everyone involved. As you can see from last Sunday's video near the end (just after the race finished) some big hits can still be acheived if required!