martin379 Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 The alleged carb infringement centres around a venturi dimension that isn't specified! How can you be cheating when there is no rule to apply? Just another grey area? That's his grounds for appeal Johno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Beef Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 I was speaking to my dad and 1mm bigger can make all the difference when it comes to the carb. He says it can give you as much as 10 horse power more. I said in chat that it is strange that he could go 3 tenths of a second faster than anyone at Taunton the last month. Thats a huge amount when you look at the size of the track, and take into account the time of the lap. Bradbury, Goldin, Farrell, no one could get even close. Are you telling me thats down to driver skill and set up, when people race there week in week out and are classed as superstars and cant touch him? u look at the rest and there is hardly a tenth of a second between them. You look at F1 and you can see that there is never a huge amount of difference between them. I think at the end of the day, the right decision has been made, and to be honest, cant see anyway that he can appeal it either. It a shame in one respect though, as he really is a nice guy to talk to, and even though he didnt know me, spent a good ten minutes chatting too me in the bar about racing at Cowdy / Knockhill in the F1 and the differences between the two. Johno Ahh thats how Hutch does it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kruiz 136 Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 I was speaking to my dad and 1mm bigger can make all the difference when it comes to the carb. He says it can give you as much as 10 horse power more. I said in chat that it is strange that he could go 3 tenths of a second faster than anyone at Taunton the last month. Thats a huge amount when you look at the size of the track, and take into account the time of the lap. Bradbury, Goldin, Farrell, no one could get even close. Are you telling me thats down to driver skill and set up, when people race there week in week out and are classed as superstars and cant touch him? u look at the rest and there is hardly a tenth of a second between them. You look at F1 and you can see that there is never a huge amount of difference between them. I think at the end of the day, the right decision has been made, and to be honest, cant see anyway that he can appeal it either. It a shame in one respect though, as he really is a nice guy to talk to, and even though he didnt know me, spent a good ten minutes chatting too me in the bar about racing at Cowdy / Knockhill in the F1 and the differences between the two. Johno Ahh thats how Hutch does it We'll soon find out when he wins the World Final on Thursday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F2-Fan Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 banned for a year from what i heard??? your hearing is outstanding then i don't even think the BOC has discussed the matter in hand yet so how can he be banned for a year? Cod you are correct, the BOC have not as yet discussed the matter and then Gordon will have 15 days to lodge his appeal should he wish to lodge one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F2-Fan Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 Dont listion 2 anyone of the ftooz fourm etc just look on briscaf2.com as you will get the truth there. If you give a million monkeys typewriters one of them will tap in something intelligible eventually... Assuming the offending bit has been on the car for a while, why wasn't it picked up in post race scrutineering after the Scottish, Semis or Dutch / Belgian World Cup thing that he won? Are there different levels of scrutineering? I am sure the answer to that is on Ftooz I just don't have time to wade through the dross. For punishment, I think he should be made to race the Duratech engine test car for the rest of the season. Dave Harley was quoted somewhere saying it needed racing by a really top guy. You mean the Duratec car that is currently broken, as far as I am aware the car will be going back soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hutch#331 Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 Theres no chance in this world a 1mm diff in a carb will give you 10 horse, mabye 0.5 horse max which would be unnoticable Starting from pole theres no way he would have had the intention of cheating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin379 Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 Theres no chance in this world a 1mm diff in a carb will give you 10 horse, mabye 0.5 horse max which would be unnoticable Starting from pole theres no way he would have had the intention of cheating What if it was 7 thousnadths of an inch "too big"... ...Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz215 Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 Admit it martin yer mans been caught for cheating he should take it like a man not the little whinging eye rubbing laddie he is" WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND " serves the little twerp right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hutch#331 Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 How can you cheat if its not illegal in the rule book ya fandan We'll see what happens tommorow............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky961 Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 if it's different from a standard carb then it's not legal is it... You allow certain tolerances which are specified you will get every man out there modifying there carb to the higher tolerance to get that little bit more out of the carb and so there is no point in stating that it has to remain standard after that, face it, it aint standard, it aint legal. Doesn't need to be a stated dimension if it aint the same as a normal carb body.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kruiz 136 Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 I agree with Johno and Sparky's posts, as much as Gordon seems like a nice bloke I think its the right decision. I don't think F2 BOC would put the sport under this much controversy for no reason at all... the rules state carb must be standard, and obviously it wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johno3 Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 (edited) Assuming the offending bit has been on the car for a while, why wasn't it picked up in post race scrutineering after the Scottish, Semis or Dutch / Belgian World Cup thing that he won? Are there different levels of scrutineering? I would be curious to know if they strip down engines after these championships too. I read somewhere that they didnt for the Scottish, and I would have thought that for the semi finals they didnt either, as they sure got it done quick to enable them out for the meeting final if they did. As for the Dutch, Iam not sure, but again he was allowed to race again later in the meeting - so can they really do this that quickly? EDIT - Sorry only read half of the replies..... lol. I was only going on what my dad had told me regarding the engines. I assume he knows what he is talking about as he has been a ford mechanic all his life and used to work on Andy Morris' F2's as well. That was pre 1997 though, so he maybe wrong!! I regards to their being no measurements, I read something on ftooz that quoted the rule book. Basically its a standard part that a company use that the F2's have been told to use, and hence has no stirct measurements in the rule book. This guy then did some research into the parts, and I am sure it said something about 28mm and 36mm. So I am therefore assuming that it was something different to these kind of measurements. If I have the time tomorrow, and I will find the post in that long thread and put it on here. At the end of the day, no matter wheather he did it knowingly or not, he has been found to have an ilegal part on his car which is obviously deemed to give him an advantage. Whether it be 10horse power or 0.5 horse power, .3 tenths of a second or 3 hundreths of a second, it is still deemed to give him an advantage, it therefore against the rules, thus illegal, and thus the title was rightfully taken off of him. You have to remember though, a lot of this is actually speculation, and guess work. N one is ever going to agree when the full facts are not known. Cheers Johno Edited September 16, 2008 by Johno3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prydie#9 Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 Assuming the offending bit has been on the car for a while, why wasn't it picked up in post race scrutineering after the Scottish, Semis or Dutch / Belgian World Cup thing that he won? Are there different levels of scrutineering? N one is ever going to agree when the full facts are not known. Cheers Johno i think we all agree Gordon is a cheat, a drunk and an unfit mother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hutch#331 Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 Assuming the offending bit has been on the car for a while, why wasn't it picked up in post race scrutineering after the Scottish, Semis or Dutch / Belgian World Cup thing that he won? Are there different levels of scrutineering? N one is ever going to agree when the full facts are not known. Cheers Johno i think we all agree Gordon is a cheat, a drunk and an unfit mother Related prydie ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mart 870 Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 Martin379, do you really think the BOC would go to all these lengths of taking away the win from Gordon just cos they dont like him??? Wouldn`t it have been easier to ban him before the WF if they have such a dislike of him to save all the bother of having to do it this way and why indeed wouldn`t they like him?? Non of us have all the facts the BOC have yet so presuming it`s down to this or that is just a waste of time until we are all told the truth from the BOC. The fact remains that his carb was not standard (the other 3`s who were checked were!) so therefore he`s been removed fom the results. Has anyone thought that if the venturi issue is such a grey area as some have said Gordon thought he stood a fair chance of getting away with it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary17 Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 is it true bingley made the final decision on whether to exclude him from the results or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin379 Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 (edited) Have a look on Ftooz at Dave Ricahrdson's post, it's very insightful... Edited to add that whilst you're doing that, take a look at Mike331's at the same time, they're folk that are going to know what they're talking about... Edited September 17, 2008 by martin379 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 36 and 3/4 i think it was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRAV365 Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 is it true bingley made the final decision on whether to exclude him from the results or not? Why would it have anything to do with bingley as far as i can tell from reading most of the crap posted Ian gardnier found the carb ilegal and then Dave Coventry looked at it the next day and i guess said the same and then it went to a promotors meeting and they changed the result to the winner being ni901. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveW329 Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 The Scottish isnt a major so no engine strips are not required however the semi's and world cup are but are you telling me he used same engine for all 3 big races and same carb on all 3 Can't quite see that myself considering most if not all engine builders give the top drivers a championship engine to last 1 race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F2-Fan Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 is it true bingley made the final decision on whether to exclude him from the results or not? Why would it have anything to do with bingley as far as i can tell from reading most of the crap posted Ian gardnier found the carb ilegal and then Dave Coventry looked at it the next day and i guess said the same and then it went to a promotors meeting and they changed the result to the winner being ni901. I think most of the Board were called back to Bristol on Monday, as far as I have been led to believe Dave had to go back Monday morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogs110 Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 The Scottish isnt a major so no engine strips are not required however the semi's and world cup are but are you telling me he used same engine for all 3 big races and same carb on all 3 Can't quite see that myself considering most if not all engine builders give the top drivers a championship engine to last 1 race. is that what happened to your engine dave or is it just coz ur big day is getting nearer lmao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveW329 Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 The Scottish isnt a major so no engine strips are not required however the semi's and world cup are but are you telling me he used same engine for all 3 big races and same carb on all 3 Can't quite see that myself considering most if not all engine builders give the top drivers a championship engine to last 1 race. is that what happened to your engine dave or is it just coz ur big day is getting nearer lmao Don't know what the big day is old man had no invite as of yet Must be paying for someone elses big day And no need to strip my engine full well know its legal like probably 40-50% of other drivers out there just a shame about rest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kruiz 136 Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 Can't quite see that myself considering most if not all engine builders give the top drivers a championship engine to last 1 race. Really? How do they do that? Surely that would only happen if the engines are tuned to within an inch of their life like dragsters. But seeing as the rules are put in place to stop high tuning on such high scales I'd be interested to know what they change to mske them last one race only? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveW329 Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 The timing is changed to run at high revs giving more speed and the tolerances are pushed to the max for the use in 1 race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabs Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 You are partly right in saying about the timing (more advance) but to enable to do this a better or higher octane fuel is required to stop the engine detonating itself to pieces. A race engine is dynoed and while on this the fueling and timing is sorted. The fueling is done normally through a sensor so its very accurate, too lean or too rich can kill and engine quicker than a bucket of sand down the carb lol. With the fueling sorted throughout the rev range the timing can then be done to give the engine its maximum horsepower, along with cam timing. There is no set figure as every engine is slightly different. As an example the 2lt Pinto is quite happy to sit at 32-34 degrees of advance but some are quite capable of a bit more. The last engine i used was happy to sit at 38 degrees of advance with no signs of detonation (pinking) on straight optimax fuel. The figure of 38 was were it gave the most power and this figure does vary from engine to engine, so saying that they can just advance it up more to give more power isnt strictly true unless you have a better fuel to avoid the detonation, or its not being run at the correct advance to start with. The cam timing is something that can be altered to move the power band up or down the rev range. If say a camshaft is listed to be between 3000rpm and 7500rpm set at 108 degrees on the crankshaft, it you set it at 104 degrees at the crankshaft with the same lift for number one inlet on the camshaft the it will make the camshaft 'work' earlier in it cycle and thus moving the camshaft power band to maybe 2700rpm to 7200rpm. What you dont want is an engine that is 'off cam' when you want to plant the go pedal to come off the corner because it has been set too high in the rev range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz215 Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 Any way enough of the serious stuff i bought a voice activated cd player for the car today and when i shout COUNTRY it plays Dolly Parton when i shout ROCK it plays Guns & Roses and some one cut me up in the road today on the motor way and i shouted YA CHEATING B-----D it played THE MOODIE BLUES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F2-Fan Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 Any way enough of the serious stuff i bought a voice activated cd player for the car today and when i shout COUNTRY it plays Dolly Parton when i shout ROCK it plays Guns & Roses and some one cut me up in the road today on the motor way and i shouted YA CHEATING B-----D it played THE MOODIE BLUES hahahahaha it made it onto the net, someone sent me that by text message today and I did dare them to put it on a forum but the response I got was god no I have to race with some of them. The forum and the driver will not be named in this posting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveW329 Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 The grief Dave gets when driving himself would of thought he'd have bottle to put it on a forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F2-Fan Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 The grief Dave gets when driving himself would of thought he'd have bottle to put it on a forum I'm surprised he hasn't been banned yet, you yourself know he is running an illegal engine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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