Results and Points Skegness

[Mike]

Thanks for racing everyone, well done to all race winners and to the top scorers. See you all next week at Birmingham for Round 3!

 

Results:

Heat 1: 262 126 16 525 315 1 3 399 8 31

Heat 2: 262 523 31 212 87 3 8 291 315 151

Heat 3: 523 561 212 291 87 363 16 126 61 221

A-Final: 525 112 87 1 262 151 523 291 126 3

GN: 8 112 315 16 1 212 291 561 87 523

 

Points:

30 pts 262 Harmen

30 pts 525 Mav

30 pts 87 Robin

30 pts 112 TomD

27 pts 523 ErnieJr.

26 pts 1 Dazza

20 pts 291 Marten

18 pts 212 Pedz

16 pts 8 Tosh

16 pts 16 JK

14 pts 126 Leech

14 pts 315 Mike

13 pts 151 Dode

11 pts 561 Murf

10 pts 3 Johno

7 pts 31 Skeet

3 pts 363 Walker

1 pts 399 GoingInStyle

1 pts 221 Spike

1 pts 61 WaningeJR.

0 pts 515 Big Al

Edited December 18, 2009 by Mike

[Johno3]

Thanks very much for the meeting Mike.

 

Congratulations to Mav on taking the meeting final.

 

What did we think to the meeting then, or more specifically the tyre settings?

 

My gut feeling was that the tyre settings worked, its just that people were a little agressive with the bumpers tonight, to the point where people would be pushing their luck under the disciplinary procedures. I really think it levels the playing field a little bit more, and requires you to drive straight. I feel it rewards those drivers that drive tarmac like it should be driven.

 

Anyway, next week, we will trial it once again, and then we will discuss it as an admin team.

 

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

 

Cheers

 

Johno

[Skeet_Tong]

Thanks for the meeting Mike...glad I'm no the only one who doesn't understand the server! Need to be a whinging noobie tho and ask you to double check the results as I appear to have confused you by signing in as Skeet291 so think the car in 10th place in Heat 1 is actually me, and also that spin I had on that epic last lap in Heat 2 seems to have confused the server as it made me do an extra lap before I got the chequer??? Is there a section on the website to call for the video ref lol?!?!

 

I rather enjoyed the return to online action tho...had some great racing pre-meeting when the track was busy and didn't know what to expect in the meeting itself. Heat 2 was an absolute epic and was a very exciting yet clean finish, brilliant stuff...as for the Final, well I reckon there should've been at least one yellow flag for the pile-ups, Steve Abott must have had a night off lol. The tyre wear factor was very noticeable (especially after a spin) but not in a bad sense...you can certainly tell a difference when you've been doing a few laps offline in normal wear conditions and then try and turn the same lap times at 2x...no complaints as far as I'm concerned although I'd be interested to hear the views from the league "veterans". However, I was hugely impressed with the game itself when watching Heat 3 as a spectator...all credit to the developers of rFactor and the Stock Car mods, sensational work by you all.

 

Great stuff lads (afters with Mart435 and Pedro was fantastic, civilised racing lol) - more of the same next week...remember it'll be Christmas Eve, Santa will be watching!!!

[Skeet_Tong]

P.S. Does anyone have the replay to Heat 2 that they could upload or forward to me as it seems to have disappeared from my replay fridge???

[Tosh924]

P.S. Does anyone have the replay to Heat 2 that they could upload or forward to me as it seems to have disappeared from my replay fridge???

 

admin should have it skeet.

 

welcome back mate and it was great having some good practice with you before the meeting. hope you stick around fella, great to have you back on track.

 

id like to bring this tyre wear up if i may (i know its only the first meeting and would just like to share my view on the wear thing) and i know why were doing it but....

 

pah... personally im stuck on this trial on the tyre wear at level 2 were trying atm.

imo id prefer the physics to maybe be looked at than upping the anti on tyre wear when the cars are hard enough to drive as it is from a white grader to red grade for 22 consistant laps. i find it not enjoyable to drive from at least halfway through a race as im trying to charge through the pack and gain places whilst.... on tenter hooks not to blow up the rears lol. and then fall back as the tyres are burnt to a sinder and lose control of the car into oncoming leaders and cause big fights in chat lol.

 

looking after the tyres early on just doesnt seem right on a stockcar its not formula 1 lol. i think the mid battles were better last year when tyre wear was normal. yes the tyre wear levels the field up and that but is it worth it in the end if drivers are turning agressivley because the tyres are shot early doors due to a spin etc which happens a lot (hence maybe a physics change)

 

i think its an idea to be tryed 100% but i dont think it is for the racing personally.

 

 

on the upside i had 2 great races with johno in the heats, the final was a bit heavy bumpered affair and ended being the loser in that 1 lol but a win in the gn made up for it.

 

thanks for running admin

[Marten #291]

 

After just this meet i think i have to agree with Tosh. It would be better to look at physics then upping the wear. This game already has the rep of being difficult. And i think this will make it even harder, and maybe put newbies of.

Also can see a lot of lower grade wins when blue, reds, and s/s battle their way to front and demand to much of tyres in doing that.

 

Gr meet btw, except final lol.

[Mike]

Sorry Skeet, I've edited the results now. And here is the replay of heat 2.

Heat_2.zip

[FastErnieJr.]

I've enjoyed last nights meeting, as Skeet said, heat 2 was wicked! Lap after lap we kept bumping eachother wide and going past eachother and in the end Skeet didn't have much luck by spinning last bend in the last lap parking it backwards on the infield haha! I personally think it was one of the best races i've had so far on Rfactor.

 

The final was abit of a mess because alot of pileups and big hits going in, and i'm not saying i wasn't one of them!

 

But as a whole i enjoyed it and i'm gutted i can't be there next week because of them poxy Christmas commitments

[Harmen262]

Heat 2 and THE final , Great Racing !!

 

see you next week..

 

[Aub]

But as a whole i enjoyed it and i'm gutted i can't be there next week because of them poxy Christmas commitments

 

 

I think there will be alot of people in the same boat m8 i wouldnt worry

[Mav]

Extremely chuffed to have won the final, especially how I actually passed cars to take the lead, then loose it dropping to 4th, and some good fortune to miss the pileup that slowed Tom and Harmen. Nervy last two laps waiting for the hit to end my race but it never came; So I won

 

As for the tyre situation, well in my case rfactor is difficult to drive as I don't have the time or patience to work through to get a decent setup, so I go with what I can drive on the day. In practice on wednesday Night I worked on the setup and managed a 12.9; but come thursday the harder I tried the more I spun. I then concentrated on trying not to slide the car and "drive" round the track, and then found that I could do more laps before the car went loose. Thats what I tried to do in the races, and it went ok for me. So the tyres were just another problem I had to overcome during the course of the race.

 

I can, however, see it from the reds and beyond point of view. They need to be making good headway early on in a race to be in with a shout at the end of the race, but being careful is not easy to do when so much is going on around you. But then isn't that what Frankie and Andy have to do also???

 

I worked around it and was ok with it, but it is a tad easier from the front, not sure what my comments would be if I went from blue or red.

[wee dode]

thought the meeting was arlight.

 

I like the tyres on 2x but thats probably because i aint going fast enough to burn them up. Usual starts for every race reds up the back of me within a lap or 2 then a train of 2 or 3 of them punting me on really wide or just wiping me out completey. Still think people need to be careful with nerfing people out of the way but can say im guilty as in the final i just drove flat out into everything as i have seen plenty of people do.

[Murf]

As I like to drive hard (others can vouch llf) the tyre wear for me was a nightmare last night, be ok for 5 lap sprints lol... In 1 heat I used the best of my tyres trying to get past skeet which made getting to the front of the pack pretty tricky (like its not hard enough anyway).. Would be an idea to do a wear championship, say 10 races throughout the season, 25 lap race with a title at the end???? F1s are hard to drive fast, and we each have our style to get there... Keep normal tyre wear for me..

 

A few ott hits last night, and some random driving, but on the whole not a bad meet... Shud be more of the same next week..llf... Will be better for me when I get used to whos driving what car (dont have the names on)...

[Kruiz 136]

Tyre wear is a factor, or was, on the hoosiers on F1s, not so much on Goodyears I'm led to believe and yes Frankie and Andy do/did need to drive carefully protecting the tyres whilst making up ground. I've heard drivers talking of setting their cars up for the early or later stages in a race.

 

The difference, in my opinion is that the majority of lower grade cars in real life are slower than the superstars cars, not just in setup, but in the engine etc as well. So when all cars are equal in rFactor making the fastest and slowest times of the night usually have around half a second difference, go on mylaps look for a real meeting and the lap times are usually about 2 seconds in difference from fastest to slowest. Not only this, but in real life actual lap times are about 2 and a half seconds slower in general, giving real higher graders more time to get to the front. And most lower graders are careful with their cars because they can't afford the damage, so don't launch he high graders because they feel like it, so in pretty much every way the odds are stacked well against high graders in rFactor.

 

I personally didn't enjoy a single tarmac meeting last year that I can think of, and definitely won't be racing a tarmac meeting next year unless the physics are changed, to rectify all or most of the above, which is generally caused by the cars, they are way too loose, ie they drive into the corners sideways, making contact difficult, and lap times too fast, the physics need changing. The higher tyre wear is only going to go against the high graders again in my opinion, slowing the drivers who were fast down, and as mentioned above, making it very difficult to get through pack, which is hard enough without having to make sure your not sliding a little bit too much.

 

I'm pretty sure most lower graders are going to think 'ah he just wants to win more easily', but when you think about it, the above does actually need changing to make it more life like, tarmac racing for me at the moment, isn't.

 

I didn't race last night but that is my thoughts on tarmac racing as a whole.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Kruiz 136
Just re-read it, couple of errors in there

[Tosh924]

to rectify all or most of the above, which is generally caused by the cars, they are way too loose, ie they drive into the corners sideways, making contact difficult, and lap times too fast. The higher tyre wear is only going to go against the high graders again in my opinion, slowing the drivers who were fast down, and as mentioned above, making it very difficult to get through pack, which is hard enough without having to make sure your not sliding a little bit too much.

 

I'm pretty sure most lower graders are going to think 'ah he just wants to win more easily', but when you think about it, the above does actually need changing to make it more life like, tarmac racing me at the moment, isn't.

majority of lower grade cars in real life are slower than the superstars cars, not just in setup, but in the engine etc as well.

 

 

 

 

good replay kruiz thats my thinking of the situation we have, the 2 things that i never mentioned were what you said above.(engine spec and real damage ie budget)

 

in our game were all eqaull on this part and most lower graders move over to save on damage from higher graders in real life, again the game doesnt reflect this part as well as their a lot of stubborn graders out there i think these 2 points kruiz mentioned have a part to play on the tyre wear issue. this after all is a game at the end of the day. s/s and reds wont get to the front this way reflecting on the real life situation with lower graders moving over and thus saving the tyres on higher graders.

 

 

[drumbstick]

For the first release of the F1s the tyres did wear out, but everyone bitched so much it got changed. I am afraid you all made your own bed....

[Aub]

And why after nearly 3 years are you moaning about the physics now?

[Tosh924]

And why after nearly 3 years are you moaning about the physics now?

 

 

why after 3 years do we need to up the anti on tyre wear?

[drumbstick]

And why after nearly 3 years are you moaning about the physics now?

 

 

why after 3 years do we need to up the anti on tyre wear?

 

Good question

[Dave488]

ive been moaning about um for years lol, but then i moan about everything pmsl, only person i see in real life racing like the s/s do in these was timmy warick at brum and look what happened to his rear tyre lol

[Lee]

Drumb, how easy would it be to rectify the situation by making the optimum tyre temperature a smaller margin? But allow them to be cooled down quicker aswell, perhaps this would then reward those who take care of their tyres for stints by being able to blast past some drivers, and then also reward those who have the race craft to get to the front of the grid on knaffed tyres but manage to stay calm and cool them down while at front, thus leaving it open to different styles of racing. Or would this not give the desired results you ask for?

[Kruiz 136]

I think, in the beginning, the cars were driven a bit more 'properly' without the back end out into the corners, year after year, people are quicker, in fact every meeting it seems someone has improved on the track record. So I think this is one reason why the problem has come into being now, 3 years down the line. Secondly, I noticed this at the start of this year, but I wasn't sure if it was driving standards or the physics at fault, I'm fairly sure its a mixture of the two, but the physics aren't helping. Also, back when F1s were released, most of us were probably just happy there was a new mod out with a more realistic physics system, however having now driven many other mods, and other oval mods and seeing the new physics for F2s in Drumbs video, without the back end out on corner entry, I can see scope for improvement in F1s as well.

[drumbstick]

I think, in the beginning, the cars were driven a bit more 'properly' without the back end out into the corners, year after year, people are quicker, in fact every meeting it seems someone has improved on the track record. So I think this is one reason why the problem has come into being now, 3 years down the line. Secondly, I noticed this at the start of this year, but I wasn't sure if it was driving standards or the physics at fault, I'm fairly sure its a mixture of the two, but the physics aren't helping. Also, back when F1s were released, most of us were probably just happy there was a new mod out with a more realistic physics system, however having now driven many other mods, and other oval mods and seeing the new physics for F2s in Drumbs video, without the back end out on corner entry, I can see scope for improvement in F1s as well.

 

Nobody is saying they are perfect and there is not a problem but they won't be changes for 2010

 

TBH Lee I don't know as I never worked on the F1 tyre

[Grasser233]

Ok....

 

Initially, the mod did have wear on the tyres which was a lot more gradual over a 20-25 lap stint around a mid sized oval (Birmingham for eg) than the 2X wear and the consensus was that it was too much to deal with along with controlling the car, racing etc and it was removed. My personal feeling on 2X wear is that it is not very gradual at all, and that any spin or slight wheelspin causes a dramatic drop off in the condition of the tyre. This, for me, is too much for making good racing and will result in a tippy toe type, too scared to push hard style of racing...Is this what we are really trying to acheive?

 

As has been pointed out, the mod is now roughly around 3 years old now and the stability of the physics throughout has maybe led to the ultimate pace being found, particularly through setups....An overhaul of the tarmac physics has been on my mind, especially through the F2 work currently being done but with other projects on the go and needing to be finished, I'm afraid that we will not be looking into any physics changes for now due to just having too much to do with what we have. The mod is at 1.3 now and now has a certain amount of stability in it, we shall try to have a look at it once other projects are out of the way but we can't promise anything at this time.

 

Cheers

Grasser233

[Johno3]

Very interesting points of view so far, and thanks very much to Drumbstick / Grasser for their posts from the UKSOM perspective.

 

I think everyone has covered the reasons for trying the new tyre wear. Drivers, especially this year, have started to drive the car with the back end out, as this appears to be the fastest way around the track. The problem is, everyone knows that this is not how tarmac is driven in real life, and is not how tarmac was driven early on.

 

So what has happened now people start driving with the back end out? Well right from the start, people start battering each other, and ineveitably, people spin out, when they are hit on the corner. Now as we know from the early years, you can drive tarmac 'properly' but you are at a disadvantage, as this is not the quickest way around a track.

 

So how can we solve this? Well what I thought would work, and suggested to the Admin Team, is if we increased the tyre wear. This means that if you want to drive with the backend out, which is the quickest way, then you can. However, about halfway through a race, you will be punished for driving like this, due to your tyres being totally warn out. I personally think this is a fair reward. You have to choose one of 2 ways:

(1) Be quick early on in the race, tyres wrecked, then you have to fight the car for the rest of the race.

(2) Race with the car sqaure on, especially into the braking zone and through the middle of the corner (every car will slide out on the exit of the corner, just look at real life), and your tyres will last longer. Your slightly slow early on, but you pick up late on in the race.

 

Just coming back to the spinning element, people regularly moaned about people spinning them out. Spinning is a little more accepted by drivers on shale, because you do get the back end out and inevitably, you are going to get spun from time to time. But because people think that on tarmac you shouldnt get the back end out, they moan when they get spun, but actually it is their fault for driving with the back end out, and thus only leaving the person behind with the inside back rear wheel to hit. This then in turn leads to drivers going for revenge hits. With the tyre wear on x2, I am hoping that people start to race with the car straighter into the corners, which will in turn bring more sqaure on the bumper hits. These are then a little easier to control (although you do sometimes spin out) and thus people calm down a little.

 

If you look at last season, the worst meetings, or should I say the meetings with the most complaints were tarmac ones, and therefore for me it was a case of trying to find something that would [erhaps help to improve tarmac. Whether it will work or not, we will have to see. So far, Hednesford was very positive, Skegness has recieved mixed reactions (the reactions in after meeting chat was positive).

 

Onto last night, I elluded to the fact that a couple of drivers were pushing their luck a little in regards disciplinary. I do try and relax a little more over the Winter Series, but one of the main elements of our Admin Meeting was that it was time we got a little tougher. So some people need to reign back a little with the exccessive hits, or they will find they will be having a spell on the side lines.

 

One other point, and this actually contradicts what I initially said. Whilst I do think in some respects it levels the playing field, and makes it harder for every driver, I dont think the reds and the superstars struggled at all last night. Sure, two yellow tops dominated early on, but that pretty much happened at every tarmac meeting last season. However, the Superstars / Reds make up the bulk of the final places, except first place. They also have a good few at the top of the meeting points. This means, whilst I cant deny it feels a little harder, we have to work for the points, and that is no bad thing, as it should not be easy for any driver on the grid.

 

One other thing I would be curious to know is this.... did anyone actually change their set up last night to try and get the car to drive straighter, or did they just stick with the set ups they had from last year? A lot of people in practice only do 5/6 laps, go back to the garage and change something, and thus think that the car is quick. The key with this new tyre wear is to run for 16-20 laps, and see how the car reacts. You have to think about the whole race rather than just will your car set the fastest lap.

 

Anyway, very good thread so far with the comments being very fair and carefully constructed.... keep the comments coming, and we will see what Birmingham brings next week.

 

Cheers

 

Johno

[Lee]

In other words to conclude what has been said.

 

X2 Tyre wear is more realistic, even with its downfalls, and will hopefully stand for next season. All will stay this way untill UkSom have shortened their list of things to do which will happen in due course.

 

 

[big al 515]

Well done Mav, a cracking Final win.

 

I enjoyed chugging round. I took it steady so as to keep better control of the car and felt a lot happier doing that than going into corners on the edge and losing control. Obviously I wasn't quick enough but who cares, I enjoyed it.

 

Skeggy seems the best track for my pc, I had no lag or warp at all last night. I think Brum is a good one for me too so will try to make next week.

 

Using tyre wear gets thumbs up from me, I had no problems.

[Hutch#331]

Skegs a FILTERED track for tyre wear without the multiplier, x2 would have cooked them

Edited December 18, 2009 by Hutch#331

[Dazza290]

Skegs a FILTERED track for tyre wear without the multiplier, x2 would have cooked them

 

 

Was just thinking the same!

 

For what its worth, I dont think any amount of physics changes and tyre rates will actually affect the racing, it will come down to the drivers. The amount of times, particulary at places like Skegness and Birmingham where you get someone skipping the concrete or kerbs to nail you and get position is unreal. It wont change whether your tyres are knackered or the cars drive straighter.

 

From my point of view having tyres wearing faster will only mean bad news for the guys trying to get through the pack. Trying to level the playing field? Well to me thats a huge disadvantage to the guys near the back? The default setups are plenty quick enough to be competitive and It will unfortunately come down, as always, whoever can get in the most practise. As Johno mentions its normally tarmac meetings which get the complaints, purely because people dont brake early enough for the corners and always feel the need to hit the car in front. I know its stockcars at the end of the day and hard racing is all part of it but theres a fine line between ''hard'' and 'excessive' and the sooner people take responsibilty for there own actions the quicker the situation will get better.

 

Anyway, back to original topic, I dont find the tarmac physics as they were last year too much of a problem, and If I had to vote I would vote against having the tyre wear increased.

 

Darren

 

P.s Forgot to mention well done to Mav for the final and the other race winners, and to admin for running

Edited December 18, 2009 by Dazza290

[Kruiz 136]

Ok, if not adjust the current tarmac car physics, how about this...

 

I just had a play on the tarmac tracks with my shale car, and although not perfect (obviously) I would say that actually, it is an improvement on the tarmac cars physics. Although it is possible to drive with the back end out still its not necessarily faster, and more often than not, if you do, your exit line is compromised as they seem to be looser on exit with less grip. Not only that, but most tracks the lap times are slowed by half a second or so, which is still a second too fast but its a start. If anything was to be tested, I'd be enthusiastic to see a meeting where shale cars were raced on tarmac instead of the tyre wear upped.